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This topic contains 2 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  Agricola 1 year, 8 months ago.

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  • #583 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    3 pts

    Quite interesting following your transcript on:
    https://medium.com/viridisgreen/yale-ms-vault-49-a-bilingual-herbal-page-2865aa558bb

    It is related to (VMS) f35r, and f87r.

    The foliae symbol is interesting, are there more examples of this as symbol?
    If the folio symbol, could be the VMS T or K, would that be logical in
    relation to the occurences of cTh and cKh ?

    Same for the drachme symbol. such resembles the VMS letter [r].
    Are there more examples?
    Since that character [r] occurs as word-final in the VMS, if it is drachme,
    the VMS text would say: …. drachme. Is that logical in Italian/French/Latin?
    Sometimes the [r] is found as word-final but then the [y] is the last char. For example [dairy].

    French.
    The french need a little fine-tuning I think.
    The first word POR, could it not be POUR?
    The ligature in the VMS [P] could easily stand for POUR which makes totally sense to me.

  • #585 Score: 0

    MarcoP
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    3 pts

    Thank you for your comments, Agricola!

    “The foliae symbol is interesting, are there more examples of this as symbol?
    If the folio symbol, could be the VMS T or K, would that be logical in
    relation to the occurences of cTh and cKh ?

    Same for the drachme symbol. such resembles the VMS letter [r].
    Are there more examples?
    Since that character [r] occurs as word-final in the VMS, if it is drachme,
    the VMS text would say: …. drachme. Is that logical in Italian/French/Latin?
    Sometimes the [r] is found as word-final but then the [y] is the last char. For example [dairy].”

    I must say I am not sure of the abbreviation for “foliae”: I read it “fl”, but it could also be “rl”, or “r-is”. “Leaves” is a rather wild guess based on context.
    “drachma” is quite common in medical texts. For instance, you can see examples in the previous post:
    https://medium.com/viridisgreen/antidotarium-nicolai-athanasia-3325861e11b

    In Italian in would be ok to say “tre dracme” (three drachmas), but it seems that the ancient usage was more similar to English where the number occurs before the unit measure (e.g. 5$ five dollars).
    Personally, I think the Voynich alphabet is too small to allow for very specific meaning for symbols. My preferred idea is that each symbol has a phonetic value (similarly to the theories of Stephen Bax and Emma May Smith). But who knows?

    “French.
    The french need a little fine-tuning I think.
    The first word POR, could it not be POUR?
    The ligature in the VMS [P] could easily stand for POUR which makes totally sense to me.”

    I agree on the need for “tuning” (not necessarily “fine”, there could be major mistakes). I am sorry but my knowledge of French is limited, even more so for medieval French. The abbreviation po-r likely stands for “pour” as you say. A single unabbreviated “pour” occurs once.

  • #587 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    3 pts

    My question on the probability is indeed based on the sequence of the number – and symbol of unity.

    The order in recipes seems to be bound to regions and language: where one used to write 5 D. another manuscript uses D. 5

    This is interesting because if you assume the numbers in the VMS are indeed numbers (4.8 and 9 and perhaps 5 or 2) then all other characters are a unit of measurement.

    However following the logic that there is a consequent system, there should be always, for example a 9 in front of a word if you want to write: “9 spoons of…”

    and never “spoons 9”.  Since there is only a particular position for some characters and some n-grams (40…, 89…r…daiin) those are the preferred ones that are a “unit of measurement”.

    If we take spoon as unit, that being said,  the “word” 40…. can only mean:  spoon ….

    And it all still does not really make sense. I suggest we try to find a French ms with recipes which could shed more light on my theory on units.

    However  you might have the impression I think the VMS contains recipes, I am already past that theory, after comparing many ms, there are always clean numbers to be seen.

    These numbers are always ten-fold of bigger. Like 80, 71, 24, 13 etc. The biggest argument that there are no recipes in the VMS are based on lack of those number sequences.

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    My preferred idea is that each symbol has a phonetic value (similarly to the theories of Stephen Bax and Emma May Smith). But who knows?

     

    Those theories have a basis that I’ve investigated as well. In order to discuss why it is NOT possible that the VMS contains phonetic sequences, one needs to understand how phonetic sequences can be build.

    A language is build around phonetic sounds.  In any language there is need for specific sounds. Based on those the alphabet and the combination of sounds will form n-grams.

    Those combinations can be simply measured, let’s say ABC is a representation of the highest occurence of sounds. Then you can simply count ABC and make a ngram graph, but you know all that.

    Now let’s assume I use not only ABC, but  also FGH and ABK for that same sound. Also, those can be measured. The combinations of the “vectors” before and after ABC, FGH and ABK will show that they behave similar, by logic.

    Such behaviour is NOT in the VMS. Therefore there is no correspondence between “language phonetic values” and the “Voynich written text”.

     

    The (unpublished) research and analysis took me about 6 months and the tools I created for this, yet show that there is interesting behaviour between them.
    The main problem with which I struggle still, is that the amount of unique “entities” is always insufficient to construct an alphabet or to relate it to a specific language dna.
    And that is the main reason why I think it is perhaps a ciphered solution that we must find, or it is deliberate constructed systematic nonsense. But in both cases there is system to be found.

     

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