Is it a map or not?

This topic contains 27 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Agricola 1 year, 3 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #646 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    My theory for those who have read about it on ciphermysteries.com is that it represents what I call “A map of a journey”. I believe the non-central rosettes constitute part of a map of a specific route. I believe the central rosette is not part of the map and in my analysis it represents an individual, most likely the Pope. I believe that the 4 rosettes in the centre of each side of the page represent specific locations on the map, but do not constitute sub-maps in their own right. The 4 corner rosettes and all the causeways constitute parts of the map in my analysis. So the page represents a map showing a journey that the author of the Voynich took. I, of course, have specifics in my mind, but this should serve as an introduction.

  • #648 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    Hello Mark!

    Do you want this an open or a private discussion?

    Can I help you in finding any specific information

  • #651 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    I really do not know what it is; I’m open to suggestions.

    But, Since there seem to be 5 or 6 “containers” in the middle circle, the most convincing theory for me would evolve around those 5 containers.

    For example they could contain: the elixir of youth, the elixir of wisdom, life, etc.. see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir_of_life

     

  • #652 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    Keep this as an open discussion. I interpret tthe 6 “containers” to be chalices; there is an obvious pommel on one of them. I believe the central object is a crown. So I think it shows a crown surrounded by chalices. I interpret the 3 tiers to be the 3 tiers of the pope’s tiara; as well as the central crown you can see another crown on the edge of the rosette. So my interpretation is that the central rosette represents a crown. The “pipes” I believe to be cannons.

  • #654 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    To be clear I believe the central rosette represents the Pope. All the other rosettes are part of the “map of a journey”.

  • #655 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    I should day that I think the centre left rosette shows the rose window of Geneva cathedral. I think the centre right rosette represents the crown of the Duke of Milan. I believe the top centre rosette represents Pfafers Abbey in Switzerland.

  • #656 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    TYPO        day -> say

  • #657 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    Chalices surrounded by a crown; very interesting.

     

    In relation to the pope & cannons…well I am not so sure.

    The display of cannons have a specific mnemonic character in medieval time, (pillar like drawings since +/- 1100), that means that once there is a mnemonic graphic for it, that will not change.

    That works the same like our emoticons, if we have a smiley  🙂  to express joy, it would be very awkward to use something entirely different to express the same thing in communication, because it will not be understood.

    The “map of a journey” as suggested, I will think about it. But why aren’t there any such names found, if they would represent “people”?

    Myself I find myself often hopping on two legs: one point of view wants to find a relation between the herbals and the rosette, the other one wants to find a relation between religion and the rosette.

    Hopping on both legs, I’ve found some good relations for some parts of the rosette, but not the whole. That makes my assumptions worthless in my view; for me a good theory must be solid on all points.

     

  • #658 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    I have seen drawings of cannons which look very much like the “pipes” surrounding the central rosette. Note there are also “pipes”/cannons coming from the top left rosette. I argue that this is in opposition, but I will explain more in a future comment.

    I believe the central rosette represents a person i.e. the Pope Eugene IV (or possibly the antipope Felix V). I don’t believe any other of the rosettes represent people. I believe that they represent geographical locations. I said that I think that the centre right rosette shows the crown of the Dukes of Milan i.e. of Duke Filippo Maria Visconti, but I believe it represents the Visconti Castle in Novara, not the Duke himself rather just his castle. The crown has across it twisted palm and olive branches, which is a unique design.

  • #659 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    To give you a few more details:

    I believe the Top Right rosette represents Milan and the Bottom Left rosette represents the lakes around Lucerne. I believe the buildings represented in Milan include the Castello di Porta Giova, San Lorenzo and San Gottardo. I believe the Certosa di Pavia is also illustrated and St. Gallen Monastery and Laufen Castle in Schaffhausen and the Reichenkloster in Zurich and the walls of Bellinzona and many more. You can find much more detail in my comments on the Ciphermysteries blog.

  • #662 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    Ok, saving some notes here.

    Dukes of Milan. https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducatus_Mediolanensis

    Filippo Maria Visconti 1412 – 1447

    The Visconti family, very well known through one of the first tarot (read: card games) deck called the Visconti-Sforza tarot deck.

    The Montechino castle: The Confalonieri family from Piacenza took control of the castle in the early 12th century. In 1393 Gian Galeazzo Visconti, Duke of Milan, while solidifying his control of the area, conferred the feudal title of Count and the lands surrounding Montechino to the family as vassal allies. In 1492 they sold the castle.

    The castle was built with tower topped by battlements with Guelphs merlon.

    Visconti-Sforza Castle (Novara) 

    Could not find the “crown has across it twisted palm and olive branches”

     

  • #663 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    It took me quite a while to find what the Visconti crown looked like, because I was already curious. I will look for the origin references, they may be in Italian. But the references say the “crown is crossed by twisted palm and olive branches”.

  • #664 Score: 1

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    Here it describes the Visconti crown:

    http://www.storiadimilano.it/arte/imprese/Imprese06.htm

  • #667 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    As attachment

    Attachments:
    You must be logged in to view attached files.
  • #669 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    Yes, that is correct. However I think on the actual crown as worn on the head those branches cross over the top of the crown, presumably made of gold, as it says in the description in my previous comment. Obviously when viewed from the side as in tue carving they would be hidden if they were shown on top of the crown that is why I think it is shown like that.

  • #673 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    I should tell you that the 2 drawings that look volcanos actually represent the mountains of the Alps and what is spurting from their tops are water symbolising that the mountains are the source of many rivers.

    The causeways are bounded by lakes:

    Lake Maggiore

    Lake Como

    Lake Zurich

    Lake Constance

    Lake Geneva

    Lake Neuchatel

    Some causeways are bounded by rivers indivated by the curly lines.

     

  • #690 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    Have a look at:

  • #691 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    Look at the bottom right rosette and the view of the cloisters from above.

  • #692 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    Yes, I agree that looks like it.

    I’ve always found that the bottom right rosette did represent a view of a garden-like thing from above or something like a cemetery.

    That being said doesn’t rule out that it could show a place, and yet have a symbolic meaning.

  • #693 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    Check who the Abbot was in the 15th Century. If you look in Google Earth you will now see gardens near the Abbey resembling what you see in the drawing. Much of the Abbey was built later, so the Abbey would have looked much more like the drawing. Under the Abbot there was extensive draining of the marshes and the introduction of irrigation projects for the bearby farmland. These is just a small part of my analysis.

     

  • #694 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    If you can build a synopsis around the whole rosette, that on itself would be an accomplishment and I mean that in the most positive way.

    However, you must aks yourself if you should do that, because, filling in the last details are often not possible and it undermines the believability of the whole thing.

    It is possible you are not not waiting for this advice, but I am speaking also to myself…

    Again, let me know if I can help in any way, to be honest mostly the cipher part has my interest.

  • #695 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    I will share with you my full annotated version of my analysis of the 9 rosette foldput. The reason for my interest is that if there is some truth in it then it has important implications for the geographical origins of the Voynich and probably for authorship.

    As an example if one has identified the author or geography correctly that would have great use in isolating where to find clues to the cipher.

    So in short from my analysis the 9 Rosette foldput has really use in assisting the understanding of the cipher.

    So the Cipher and 9 Rosette Foldout are not 2 separate things.

    It will probably take me a week to produce ny fully annotated version of the 9 rosette foldout as it is very very detailed, so when I have done that I will upload it to my OneDrive and you can see what you think.

  • #696 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    I have attached an image showing some of my identifications in the top left hand corner of the Rosettes foldout if you are interested.

    I should add that the water on either side is Lake Constance and Lake Zurich extending into the Limmat river.

    I will try to combine all my analysis of this page into one image, but here is part of it.

    Attachments:
    You must be logged in to view attached files.
  • #698 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    The bottom left part of my analysis is attached.

    Attachments:
    You must be logged in to view attached files.
  • #700 Score: 0

    admin
    Keymaster
    • Topics:
    • Replies:

    This looks all very nice Mark, but how do you know that all this detailed work, pinpointed to an exact location, is correct?

    The only way of knowing such details, is if you cracked the cipher parts. Did you?

  • #701 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
    Participant
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    4 pts

    I am not sure every exact detail is correct. However those are my best guesses having studied the page and corresponding area. I think it important to make an effort to identify every detail on the whole 9 rosette page. The important thing is that when you see all of my identifications on the whole page then you will see how it all fits together like a jigsaw. My hope is that whilst some small details will inevitably be incorrect, given the very large number of identifications on the page, the overall analysis is correct. Some identifications look more likely than others, but I like to think that overall the structure is strong. I have finished all my identifications on the whole of the 9 rosette foldout, but now I need to put them all on the one page. I will have at some stage to produce a long writeup corresponding to my analysis of the page.

    I have not cracked the cipher and even if I had I suspect that the precise identification of some of the smaller buildings will be hard.

  • #702 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    It is nice to see that you have processed these details and I hope that the puzzle leads to a definitive insight that can be backed up.
    The best way to do that is find a nomenclator list which reveals the final Rosette identities.

  • #747 Score: 0

    Agricola
    Moderator
    • Topics:
    • Replies:
    3 pts

    The three elements are often displayed as: http://ms.webpoint.nl/img/caddmsa5a/p14.jpg

    (whole project http://ms.webpoint.nl/view_noframes.php?p=45)

    I am confident that the small connected balls are “some of the basic” elements.

     

    Regarding the compass, perhaps this is not in line with the development time-frame of the compass.

    I want to show you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    f57/v – Could it be a compass reading?

     

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.