Voynich as a cipher

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  • #647 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I am firmly in the camp that the Voynich manuscript is written in cipher. I do not believe it is written in a known or unknown language in an unknown script.

    This is one of the key debates in Voynich research:

    Language or Cipher

    I look to similarities in the cipher symbols in the diplomatic ciphers used in cities like Milan. Sources like the Tranchedino cipher ledger and “Die Anfange…” by Meister have informed my thinking.

  • #649 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    I agree with you.

    If one would write  (its a cipher) “itextra s aextra Cipexa traher”  that is still a cipher, mixed with a natural language.

    What is the  Aloys Meister (org) page number ,where you are looking for the Tranchedino.

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  • #653 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    You can find the Tranchedino cipher ledger in the Vienna archive. You can also buy an expensive book with a copy of the Tranchedino ledger. However I have used the 2 volumes by Lydia Cerioni called “La diplomazia Sforzesco…”. The 2nd book contains a copy of the Tranchedino ledger, but also many other cipher records. If you email me I will share this with you.

  • #665 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Some notes.

    The site of NickP with the initial article (click on comments for more info):  http://ciphermysteries.com/2011/06/28/milanese-enciphered-letters-call-for-help

    I have attached a preview of the Meister pages he comments.

    Home › Archivi storici › Complessi archivistici › Carteggio Visconteo Sforzesco ›here

    Philip Neal has made a summary of one of the important sources on this topic on this page: http://philipneal.net/voynichsources/bischoff_summary/

    The Tranchedino is also discussed here: http://ixoloxi.com/voynich/precednt.html

    “Jim Reeds: The MS is “Codex Vindobonensis 2398”, ..
    The book I saw was vol. 22 in series “Codices Selecti / Phototypice Impressi” published in 1970 by “Akademische druck
    -u. Verlagsanstalt” of Graz, Austria. Its title is “Francesco Tranchedino / Diplomatische Geheimschriften / Codex Vindobonensis 2398 / Der
    Oesterreichischen Nationalbibliothek / Faksimilieausgabe / Einfuehrung
    Walter Hoeflechner”.

    VIENNA, NATIONALBIBLIOTHEK, Cod. Vindob. 2398.
    Franciscus Tranchedinus, Furtivae litterarum notae .
    This codex contains some two hundred ciphers used by the Milanese Chancery between 1450 and 1496.

    Sometimes mispelled as: Trachedino, Francesco Tranchedino, perhaps Tranchedinus.

    Then there’s this remark as well:

    Kahn’s book shows  some others from the 16th century on pp. 115, 120, 123, and 139 (in the 1st edition of his book).

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  • #670 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, I have seen those. However I have not worked through the long list of different enciphered documents and investigated each. Although I have a copy of the paper by Bischoff. Only some of the documents he refers to are relevant and my understanding is that generally the ciphers are only simple substitution.

    You are right about the archive reference.

    The SIAS Archivi website can also help to browse inventories for State Archives.

    I believe that the most complex ciphers of that time are the diplomatic ciphers used by the Italian city states.

  • #671 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    The archives that I plan to visit are:
    Novara

    Milan

    And probably the following:

    Lucca – Archive of Paolo Guinigi

    Modena

    Siena

    Pisa

    Florence

    Bologna

    If I want to visit:

    Venice

    Vatican Archive

    or others

    I will need to make a future trip as I will only be in Italy for 2 weeks.

    I saw .nl so I guess you are from the Netherlands, is that correct?

    How good is your knowledge of the German language?

    I studied German at school many years ago, but I find Meister not so easy for me to read.

     

  • #672 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    The difficulty I face is that the diplomatic cipher records for Milan before 1447 are very sparse. This is because in 1447 the Castello di Porta Giova where the cipher records were kept was burned to the ground. So it looks like the best place to look for Milanese ciphers from the time of Filippo Maria Visconti is in the archives of other city states; this could be correspondence or intercepted letters.

  • #674 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Yes, NL. I can read some languages, best languages are Dutch, German, English, French. Then comes Italian, Spanish and dialects. Some Latin and Greek, Hebrew and of course Yiddish.
    Together with the help of google translate you can come a long way in almost any language.
    The somewhat older versions of most languages require some practice.

    Currently, I am reading the Meister book “…Modernen Diplomatischen Geheimschrift”. It is not easy to read, but not very difficult either.
    At first I was confused because I thought it concerned the “Papal cipher” book of Meister. I was unaware he had written 2 excellent cipher books.
    There is lot of interesting information especially in the beginning and ending of his books, so I am very carefully going through the start.

    Biggest problem with proposing these kind of ciphers in relation to the VMS is this:
    * plaintext : cipher lettercount is often way off: for example 24/26 : a multiple of that for example 50 of 70 characters
    * the nomenclators in the list seem short to me. Compare it to the UK ciphers from that period, where the nomenclators list is two or three times longer
    * the chosen bi- or trigrams (in the nomenclators) seem very strange and not logical for Italian or Latin in general

    I did not yet see a letter/ledger page where a full message is printed, that would improve my insight on these ciphers greatly.

    Yes, I agree with you (and Nick) that the best chance would be through letters, and you should really try to contact relatives of the Visconti family or specific researchers.
    Perhaps there are Ancestors Legacy researchers active on that area.

  • #675 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    I used these words: cancelleria segreta

    and get:  http://www.lombardiabeniculturali.it/istituzioni/schede/8000140/

    As a good example of material of interest.

    ‘Scriba, coadiutore, cancelliere’ are the people involved. Text seems to come from(Leverotti 1997, p.22).

    scriba=scribe: the writer

    coadiutore=assistant (http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/coadiutore_%28Sinonimi-e-Contrari%29/)

    cancelliere=chancellor :  title of official positions (original chancellors were the cancellarii of Roman courts of justice)  who sat at the cancelli or lattice work screens of a basilica or law court, which separated the judge and counsel from the audience

    La cancelleria e gli atti cancellereschi dei Visconti, signori di Milano dal 1277 al 1447 (Tafeln XI-XIII):

    http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cid/cid1983/art_21

    (Excellent diplomatic site, with more than enough to read).

     

    It also shows a list of the (Venetian) Cancellier Grande: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancelliere_grande

    A small piece of the reform in 1450 of the Cancelleria under  Francesco I Sforza: https://archivio.duomomilano.it/it/infopage/la-cancelleria-di-francesco-i-sforza/2fb9ad43-bee0-4063-bfaa-c7008d6f40a6/

    who appointed Cicco Simonetta as capo al primo cancelliere.

    Here it says in 1444: already: http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/cicco-simonetta

    His original decrypting rules (as transcribed and translated by Philip Neal) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cicco_Simonetta?uselang=it#/media/File:Simonetta_decrypting_rules.JPG

    Seems to be from the BNF Codex 1595.  Can not find the original. Is is this? : http://archivesetmanuscrits.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cc996895/ca19881508
    Here in French translated in 1890. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k67357p.texteImage

     

    Here you can find the secret letter from 1476, with at the bottom (again) the signature of Simonetta? (I am not sure)

    The document is related to the killing of the Duce of Galeazzo Maria Sforza. Stored in the Archive di Stato di Milano

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/41/82/b34182d06521ca8ef61a4e2f04032099.jpg

    You could compare this letter with the final page in the VMS, I believe 116v text.


    http://www.rotarymilanoportavittoria.org/Galleriafoto/2013-05%20ArchivioStorico/index.html

    Seals and simbolo Sforza, Milano, and some documents 1470. 1490.


     

    I’ve quickly browsed through the pdf’s

    … PDF : studi di storia medioevale e di diplomatica 19 – Riviste UNIMI.   https://riviste.unimi.it/index.php/SSMD/article/download/9820/9275

    and the “Poenze sovrane e altre voci” looks very interesting!  http://www.archiviodistatomilano.beniculturali.it/getFile.php?id=144

    with the ‘Inventario di corrispondenza’

    and

    http://www.casadellaculturamelzo.it/storiainmartesana/pdf/numero10/alemani_fabrizio_la_navigabilita_del_naviglio.pdf

    with the interesting pictures and maps! Look at PDF page 31.

     

  • #676 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, there are 2 books by Meister. The Papal ciphers book is less interesting I think as most of the ciphers are 16th century. However there is one cipher key listed “Bologna” from the early 15th century.

    I mentioned Meister as he chose a selection of cipher keys to include in his book and so not all the cipher keys that he found. He states the archive location where each cipher key is to be found. However it is 100 years since he wrote these books and the cipher documents may have been moved in some cases. I am trying to work out where to find these documents now and how many cipher keys or enciphered letters there are in each location that are not in his books.

    For example, I believe there are 72 cipher keys associated with Paolo Guinigi, Lord of Lucca.

    At this time I think it would be useful to increase the size of cipher records that I have access to. I am interested in which cipher symbols they have in common with the Voynich and their relative complexity. My particular interest is those associated with Milan.

    Recently I found:

    This is the complete Codex Urbinate that Nock Pelling is interested in.

     

     

  • #677 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    You are right Google Translate is very useful. There are many languages which one needs to work with:

    Italian, Latin (The language of the time), German (Not only for sources like Meister, but also from the 15th century), English (Many useful texts are in English), French (Some important text are in French)

    There is even some use for Spanish and probably other languages.

    I have used Google translated, but I would like to make sure that I have identified the current location of all the sources that Meister lists and my German is not as good as I would like it to be plus he often uses abbreviations for the location of each source.

    Regarding the cipher count there are 2 points to make:

    (i) Don’t forget the many rare characters in the Voynich, which increases the symbol count a lot. I think these may well be used to represent whole words(we see the same with the diplomatic ciphers).

    2) I think it is quite possible that the author of the Voynich has used multiple symbols where one symbol is traditionally used in diplomatic ciphers. I think it is even possible that a few whole words in the Voynich may correspond to one letter of the alphabet or letter pair. This would increase the number of correspondence or mappings greatly.

  • #678 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Regarding your last point..I’ve identified (by working hard on it about 2 years) between 20 and 30 tokens.

    That may seem small, but the complexity and possibilities are still huge, because

    those could EACH  represent 1 character, act as nomenclator, 2 or more characters, or 1 complete word.

    However, with this Meister book and his clues, perhaps there are some useful things to try.
    (Still, note that I remain pessimistic on achieving anything 😉 there)

     

    Hm…Nice Vatican book. Ha, it shows good things !

    folio 34v

    What does it say on it?

    Nota che in loco et per? per?turit le mutationes de linfrascta cifre/a
    se li usa.

    (abcdefg jlmnopqrstux s & z v_stroke reversed_quincunx)

  • #682 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, other than more author research at the moment my task that I have given myself is expanding the early to middle 15th century cipher archive known to Voynich researchers.

    Meister lists where the various cipher keys that he found were, so I need to track these down. Unfortunately my German is not great.

    I will have plenty of enciphered letters and cipher keys to scan when I am in Milan.

  • #683 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    What would be of value to the research would be one or more ciphered letters around 1450, where we can see how exactly the cipher is applied.

    Also of interested to me is information on the ‘coadiutores’  the assistents, and the actual scribists, before 1450, names and any other information if available on them.

  • #685 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I should be able to obtain enciphered letters from around 1450 in Milan and probably in other archives.

    I have done some research into the important individuals in the Filippo Maria Visconti chancery. Determining who precisely was involved with writing the ciphers is more difficult. My enquires particularly focus on the Barbavara family.

  • #686 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Some notes.

    Coat of Arms of the commune di Borgolavezzaro, Piedmont, Italy.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Borgolavezzaro-Coat_of_Arms.png

    stemma di Comune di Borgolavezzaro:

    “sempre con riferimento al vino, certamente ottimo è quello contenuto nello botte di Borgolavezzaro, reso forse più “picante” dalle due cariatidi nude che la sostengono.

    Transl: always with reference to wine, certainly great is this contains the Borgolavezzaro barrel, made perhaps more “picante” by the two naked characters that support it.

    (source on coat of arms in http://www.cr.piemonte.it/dwd/pubblicazioni/tascabili/tascabile_n_69.pdf)

    Interesting examples: see the pisces of the zodiac in “Pessinetto”, the star in m”Giaveno”, the “bal in hand” in “Perlo”, the eagle in “Casalborgoneo”, the mermaid in “Ornavasso”.

    And then the Stemma Comune di Cigliano: http://www.comuni-italiani.it/002/042/stemma.html

    Do you see what it is? It is a golden garden rake of course !

    ——-

    The Barbavara family is divers.   https://books.google.nl/books?id=486s3eMkLfgC&lpg=PA117&ots=CBmeGRAxc-&dq=Barbavara%20family&hl=nl&pg=PA117#v=onepage&q=Barbavara%20family&f=false

  • #687 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Between those two, what do you think about:

    http://www.comune.sannazzarosesia.no.it/it-it

     

  • #688 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Eh, what should I notice? The stemma is not really exciting…

  • #689 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Look at the cloisters of the Abbey.

  • #705 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    The discussed book by Meister, from 1902, which I am currently reading. Holds two important references to earlier works.

    Always I do check those before reading on, and then I got stuck there for many day, weeks, sometimes months.

    These works are: Pasini (1873), Wattenbach (1886).

    A piece of the cipher Luigi Pasini work can be found in the “regio archivio generale venezia” as Appendix. see pdf-page 304-353

    Pasini is mostly interested in the more difficult Constantinopel ciphers of early ages, but he found and read about 800 (Italian) Depesches (letters) dating from 1226 and upwards. The Appendix is in Italian and is sometimes difficult to follow for me. But it holds some interesting examples which are also used by Meister and copies of the letters are to be seen in the attachements (tavola’s).  He alse shows how numbers and alphabet were sometimes merged to create a cipher.

    Some interesting things:

    page 310: ecco il dizionario chiave suddetta la quale serviva per scrivere in cifra.  The basic dictionary around 1554 that was used to create a cipher.

    Tavola 1: the reversed S= et

    Tavola 3 (1555): the gallow-like-t-but-not-quite symbol stands for ‘di’, 8= n

    Tavola 4 (1554): o= di. 40=mi, 4=go, gallow-like-t=ditt

  • #706 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Agricola: Very interesting! I was aware of Luigi Pasini though I don’t have his book; he was a important archivist at the Venice archive. If you are interested I can share with you a book by Giorgio Costamagna that I have scanned, who was an archivist at the Genoa archive, on the subject of ciphers. I can also have scans of an article bt Jean Richard on cryptography that you may be interested in. Also there is a chapter in Paolo Preto’s book on the Venetian Secret Service; this has an excellent bibliography, likewise I would be happy to share that with you.

    However, to be honest, the work that you are doing studying Meister, especially “Die Anfange…”, is very valuable I think. That is really a very important text on ciphers in the 15th century. You would be doing an amazing job from my perspective if you could produce a list from the Meister book of where the different cipher keys he mentions are kept. You can check the locations potentially using http://www.archivi-sias.it or other online inventaries. I intend to then search each of these archives for cipher keys as I am sure Meister only included a small selection. (At the beginning of the other Meister book I think he also has some useful references.)

  • #707 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Yes, Yes, I am interested in any related book!

    Ok, I will make a list. In both books, Meister & Pasini, I am now half way. Also, still have to do Wattenbach. All this may take a couple of weeks, all together.

    Meister already tells us, “the Visconti-Sforza” correspondence/ciphers have not been found. But they would give great insight in the development of the Mailand ciphers, before 1447.

    His book is from 1902, and you need to see if there was any development there. But if that information remains unchanged, you can make first progress in finding anything there.

    However, since there are probably much (historical) studies done in that area 1400-1450, I suggest you try to find out if and where there are historical studies on them. Through that backdoor, you can possibly find letters or notarial documents, and possibly cipher related material.

    Scritture segrete. La diplomatica del documento. Documento notarile. Archivistica di Palegrafiea e Diplomatica.

    Studi di Storia medioevale e di Diplomatica. Commission Internationale de Diplomatique (FR).

    Studi storici del Notariato. Storia della repubblica di Genova. (la storia dei Genovesi)

    Accademia Ligure di Scienze e Lettere. Accademia Santo Chiara di Genova. Societa Ligure di Storia Patria.

    Source (http://www.centrostudicostamagna.it/testi.php3 last pdf.)

  • #708 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I have uploaded some more files to my OneDrive. Of particular interest to you I think will be:

    I servizi segreti di Venezia, Spionaggio e controspionaggio ai tempi della Serenissima by Paolo Preto – Chapter 13 Bibliography

    This bibliography is very thorough and detailed.

    The Costamagna book may be of interest to you.

    As far as ciphers from Milan before 1447 goes I hope to find examples of enciphered correspondence with Milan or intercepted letters from Milan in archives from other city states.  There may possibly be a small number which have survived in the Pavia or Milan archive.

    There is also a record of an enciphered letter in the “Storia Patria Genova Archivio” from a Visconti representative, so I hope to see this some day.

    This is why Meister is so important, because it can tell me where to find many other cipher records in other city state archives as Meister only put a small selection of the cipher keys that he found in his books. So I should be able to greatly expand the Italian cipher record from that time which may provide a clue to the Voynich or indicate a connection with the Voynich.

     

  • #709 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Ok, great.

    ps. You mean of course, “it can tell us where to find the ciphers”, not only you  😆

  • #710 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, you are right when you say:

    “it can tell us where to find the ciphers”

    I said “me”, because I will be in Italy visiting archives. I wasn’t trying to shut you out.

    If one is specific as to where exactly in the archives and what records one wants then very often the archives are happy to scan/photograph the documents and email them to you, sometimes for a small fee. If one is very luck, like with the Codex Urbinate in the Vatican, they may have digitised these documents already. So anyway it is not always necessary to visit an archive. However in some cases visiting the archive in person is the only option.

    For example, I will have to visit the State Archive of Milan cipher section, because I don’t know exactly what cipher records they have or where precisely in the archive those records I know about and are in interested in can be found. So I will to go to the archives there and just search through the archives for the kind of records that interest me.

  • #711 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Yes. BL is very good with proving MS-service, the Germans too.  But, I mailed my ass off to Italians in San Marino, but no reply.

    Still, I am very interested in any San Marino MS (manuscripts). And surely there must be ciphers there.
    Do you have anything on San Marino ?

  • #712 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I have not contacted the San Marino archive as it has not been very relevant to my research. It is possible that they have cipher records. I will contact them, but that is not my main focus. Your emails may have been rejected by their SPAM filter also which in language did you write your emails in?

  • #713 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    We should be able to make a list for the following in Meister “Die Anfange…” as to archive references:

    Venice

    Milan

    Modena

    Mantua

    Florence

    Siena

    Lucca(I have investigated this)

    Pisa

    Genoa

    (Book references may also be useful.)

    In Meister “Die Geheimschrift…” the archive references for the following are interesting, I think:

    On page 23 we a cipher key dated to 1412. There may be more where this is, so we might want to investigate where this is now held.

    On page 171 it lists the cipher keys of Gabriel de Lavinde dated to 1379. It might be worth knowing if these have been digitised and are available online. This is a little early, but may be interesting.

    Unfortunately the rest of the book contains 16th century cipher keys, which is really too late for us and so probably of no practical interest.

    Again there may be some useful book references in “Die Geheimschrift…”.

     

  • #714 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    What exact details do you want to be summed up?
    All mentioned places with all ciphers, is quite a lot of work, and you could not really visit them all I think.

    (Near the end of this year, I hope, I will have more time and we could go together)

    f.e.

    Place – name of location – possible oldest cipher or why is the place of interest.

    I have a good picture of the time frame and cipher knowledge and I have a feeling on the development of the ciphers through the regions.
    Not all places you mention are interesting, because they all used, bought or stole the cipher knowledge from other regions.

    However, some archives could have interesting letters that originate from other regions, written in another cipher than usual.
    So in the end: you’ll never know.

     

    San Marino is interesting to me, because of two things: (I’ve written it in ENG and IT probably)

    • isolated region with different characteristics in writing, possibly also in cipher development, but I don’t know
    • the early invention of the crossbow (see small mention here  http://voynich.webpoint.nl/?page_id=2022)

    If you can get anything. Preferably a digitized document / bible from 1400-1600.?

     

    nb

    If I make a list, I do -not- want it to be published here, but send it by email.

  • #715 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I hope to be able to determine where cipher records are kept and I may be able to obtain some scans of the records by email, so I will not need to visit them directly.

    I think I have a good chance of visiting all the Italian archives for which I cannot get scans that I know have ciphers from the time. If I can’t visit them all on one visit I will go again to Italy.

    If you do not have time to compile a list of relevant cipher locations I will have to work that all out myself. I was just trying to think of something we could collaborate on. Finding cipher records from different city state archives is useful for comparing which have the most similarities with the Voynich alphabet, so far this appears to be Milan. Finding cipher correspondence from Milan from the date of the Voynich in other city state archives would be useful as I believe these records will have the most similarities with the Voynich alphabet. I have notice from Meister that often different city states use different cipher alphabets.

    I am most interested in ciphers which date from around when the manuscript is carbon dated to i.e. around 1404-1438

    As far as visiting archives I think it is best to visit archives that the other person is not visiting, so as to maximise the number of archives that are seen.

    Yes, determining the quantity of cipher records for around the historical date of the Voynich in a specific archive should determine its importance. Also, from my perspective, the likihood that there are cipher records from communication with Milan in an archive affects its importance. The archive may be able to tell by email whether they have cipher records of the correct historical time and whether there are records of correspondence with Milan.

    I am happy for communication to be by email when and if you prefer.

    San Marino really does not figure in my research, but I may be able help you with your enquiries.

  • #716 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    As written before, I confirm I will provide the list with locations and names which we can work through.

    I will make the list and mail it. Then we can communicate on it, here.

    Perhaps by using (secret!) reference numbers, or perhaps in code… yeah, sometimes, I’m feeling young again.

    ps What I wrote was, that I do not have enough time to actually go away on a long Italy trip, yet myself.

  • #717 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, whilst I can translate the German in Meister using Google Translate that is quite a slow process for me. (I studied German at school more than 25 years ago and haven’t used it much since, so I have forgotten a lot.) If you know German quite well, coming from the Netherlands I guess, then I thought it would be an easier job for you than for me. Meister is the best source to start with to find out where to look.

    I will have the time to go to Italy, I just need to work out first to precisely which archives I should go and what I need to see when I get there otherwise I will waste time.

    Write your emails in cipher if you wish, but just let me know what the cipher is; I don’t really want to have to break 2 ciphers, yours and the Voynich.(Joke)

  • #718 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    The link to the SIAS Archive website is:

    http://www.archivi-sias.it/

    I have found this to be a useful tool for browsing many of the Italian State Archives.

    However you can often find other inventories/catalogues of archives.

    For your information the Italian archives in my opinion fall into the following categories:

    State Archives

    History of the Homeland Archives

    Church Diocesan Archives

    Town(Commune) Archives

    University Archives

    Private Archives

    But really the State Archives are the most important and I would imagine that all the references in Meister are to State Archives.

    I should add that I, personally, still have a lot to learn about Archival Research.

  • #719 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I have been looking at Meister again. I think it is quite hard linking up some of the references to current archive locations. I mean as Meister was published in 1902 it would not be surprising if some of the archives have been reorganised. However I still think we should be able to find where the cipher keys listed in Meister are now to be found. Certainly with the Lucca archive this seems quite easy.

    It does look like that in many cases the cipher keys included in Meister are really just a very small selection, so his books seems to be I think the best sources of references as to where to find cipher records in Italian archives. Whilst it is true that there are other rich sources like we fund in the Cerioni books and Codex Urbinate that are not covered by Meister his book seems like the best place to explore.

    I have a few other clues I can share with you as to places to look for cipher keys.

    As my focus is on diplomatic cipher keys I haven’t investigated Bischoff’s sources.

    Also I don’t know if you have seen this webpage:

    philipneal.net/voynichsources/bischoff_summary/

    Naturally there must be archive locations not documented by anyone. However I will pursue lines of enquiry to see if I can identify them.

     

  • #720 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    From what I have read of Bischoff it seems clear that the most advanced ciphers of the time are the diplomatic ciphers that is why I have not focussed on the non-diplomatic ciphers. Of course the Voynich is a non-diplomatic cipher, but I argue that this is a cipher influenced primarily by diplomatic ciphers of that time not other non-diplomatic ciphers.

  • #721 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    It would be nice to have a more specific inventory for the ciphers archive. I may request scans from this archive, but maybe there are ciphers from that time in other parts of the Mantua archive

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  • #724 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I found this, but I don’t know if this is right area.

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  • #726 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Now started writing….(will take some weeks at least)…..let’s do it it systematical…and good

  • #727 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I agree. I think it involves two stages.

    1) Understanding precisely where Meister says to look. This means understanding his German clearly and when he uses abbreviations, what exactly they are abbreviations of.

    2) Finding out where those places correspond to in existing archival records. This could be very easy in some cases and hard in others as some archives may have been greatly reorganised in the last 100 years. We even have to consider the possibility that in the last 100 years some records could have been lost or destroyed. Also I don’t know how carefully Meister has described where those records were, if his descriptions of archival locations are vague it makes the process harder.

  • #728 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    My idea was, I will generate a list on which you can click or copy paste.  This results in a search.

    You must visually inspect that search and work through the list. Than you can check every item in the list and work through it.

    But now, working on it, I realize it is only interesting to look for those manuscripts which fall into a specific set of requirements.

    So, first now, I work on the exact definition of the set. This will take some time.

     

  • #729 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I think it is best to work on a city state at a time.

    So I am more confident looking for what we are interested in for the archives of Lucca, Mantua, Florence and Siena. Though I still need to do some research to check that I am looking in the correct place.

    I am finding the Modena archives hard as the online inventories that they have seem not to be very well organised.

    I have some other clues as to.where to look in the Venice archives.

    As far as the Pisa and Bologna (In “Die Geheimgeschrift…”) I haven’t investigated them in much detail and I don’t how much there is to be found there. (There may not be much in Pisa.)

    Regarding Genoa, I need to make some enquiries of my own.

    Of course Milan I am investigating separately.

    If you could work out a better idea of where to look in the Modena archive from reading Meister that would be great. We might as well work through one at a time rather than wait to the end of the process.

  • #730 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    In the Archivio di Stato di Modena there is a section entitled Cancelleria ducale, Cifrario (XV-XVIII) I wonder if this is where to look.

  • #731 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I have attached the paper that Meister mentions with regard to Florentine ciphers.

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  • #733 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    There may not be many cipher keys from Bologna.

  • #734 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Thanks. You PDF document source details please ? It says G.E. Santini wrote it.  Date. source?

    page 2. He writes that in Florentino, there is a ‘Segreatri della cifra’  and there are ciphers as made/described by Pietro Gabbrielli. (Meister wrote on him in detail)

    Many dispatches are now in the Archivi Toscani. Further more blablabala. Nothing in detail or new,  as far as I am capable of reading Italian.

    —-

    Finished reading Meister meticulously. Working on the paper now…

  • #735 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Regarding the PDF:

    Archivio Storico Italiano
    SERIE TERZA, Volume 14, Number 66 (1871), Pages 473-476

    That is the information that I have.

    Paolo Preto also mentions this with respect to a specific place in the archive, in his bibliography, that I have shared with you. Paolo Preto’s book helps in that it is a much more recent book than Meister, so the archival locations may be more accurate than those in Meister.

     

  • #736 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    All correspondence between F. Sforza 16 giugno 1452 and beyond

    giorno in cui Venezia da inizio alle guerra con milan =>day in which Venice began the war with Milan

    (453 pages)

    http://www.istitutolombardo.it/pdf/10missive.pdf

  • #737 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    To get a feeling of the different institutes involved

    we should read this. (i have no time now) so a note:

    http://www.firenzepatrimoniomondiale.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Machiavelli-2.pdf

     

     

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  • #739 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    STITUTO LOMBARDO
    ACCADEMIA DI SCIENZE E LETTERE

    http://www.istitutolombardo.it/

  • #740 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    You say “Many dispatches are now in the Archivi Toscani.” So does that mean cipher keys and enciphered letters are there?

    I haven’t yet determined where in the State Archive of Florence enciphered letter and cipher keys are kept.

    In footnote 54 of the Paolo Preto bibliography it says:

    AS Firenze Inventari v/319-320

    I guess there are cipher keys here.

     

  • #741 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Carteggio Visconteo Sforzesco (1282 – 1700)
    Inventario di Sala VS.1: Sforzesco

    http://www.lombardiabeniculturali.it/archivi/complessi-archivistici/MIBA002400/

    ————

    Description of the archives of Milano:

    Researched the Archives / Libraries summed up inventories, (did not check this doc. 102 pages).

    http://www.maas.ccr.it/PDF/Milano.pdf

  • #742 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    These are the Toscane archives:

    http://www.archivitoscana.it/index.php?id=97

    The following paper also lists two other sources that mention the (oldest) writings:

     

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  • #744 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    I am looking for a good book on the life, biografia, on  Nicodemo Tranchedino and his children

    Francesco, Lunesina, Pietro Antonia e Giovanni Romano.

    Because I do not quite understand the family-tree. Is there a tree?

    Can you get access?  to: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20860864?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents 

    I really want it. Now reading you other books….

     

    —–

    Some letters, unknown to me if there  are ciphers inside.
    Data 1467  Lettere di Tranchedini Nicodemo ambasciatore del Duca di Milano a Firenze

    https://www.archivistorici.com/it/fascicoli/dettagli/136403

  • #745 Score: 1

    MarkKnowles
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    I have downloaded most of the article you have asked for from the JStor website and I will share it with you.

  • #746 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Great!

    But I can’t find it. Let me know once you put it in the shared/public.

  • #748 Score: 1

    MarkKnowles
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    I have uploaded the “Tranchedini Biography.pdf” to my OneDrive Public folder. Very sorry for the delay!

  • #749 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Unavailable Vatican manuscripts:  https://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?pag=fondi_MSS_non_disponibili

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Secret_Archives

    http://asv.vatican.va/content/archiviosegretovaticano/it/patrimonio.html

    Vatican_Secret_Archives hold docs. from about 1129, 1309,  1216 +  see PDF at the bottom of that page.

    ———-

    Very strange. I am looking for  Chig.F IV 103

    as described in the bio of tranchedini

    but
    http://www.mss.vatlib.it/guii/scan/link1.jsp?fond=Chig.

    does not report it.

    So I search on Sverzellati and it indeed holds 2 refs.

    http://www.mss.vatlib.it/guii/console?service=bibdetail&id=19982

    and

    http://www.mss.vatlib.it/guii/console?service=bibdetail&id=19987

    ???? Where is the manuscript

     

  • #750 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    She lists these ms, which are difficult to find:

    tra parentesi uncinate dat cronica e data topica, quando ricostruite o ricavate da altra fonte.

    So, the [..] means another section/archive or name during transition. So the best would be to search for external reference as the example above.

    1. Firenze, Archivio dello Spedale degli Innocenti, ser. CXIV no 127 [=in.].   I guess the in. is  incunabel section.
    2. Milano, bibl. Nazionale Braidense,  AD XI 59 [=Mi.]   http://opac.braidense.it/opac_braidense/opaclib
    3. Bibl. Apostolica vaticano, Chig.F IV 103 [=Ch.] http://www.mss.vatlib.it/guii/scan/link1.jsp?fond=Chig.

    I can not find any of these three…

    Would be great if you could find these.

  • #751 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Notes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_State_Archives_of_Italy

    milano: http://www.archiviodistatomilano.beniculturali.it –> different databases:  http://www.archiviodistatomilano.beniculturali.it/it/233/banche-dati

    Genealogy: http://www.italyheritage.com/genealogy/archives/

    All Resources: http://port.modernlanguages.sas.ac.uk/languages/it/resourcesit/archives

    According to the AIB (Italian Library Association) Italy has:

    • 206 public libraries
    • 185 university libraries
    • 75 research centres libraries
    • 40 ecclesiastical libraries
    • 35 national libraries

     

  • #752 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I have uploaded a new folder of cipher keys that you may or may not be interested in.

  • #753 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Thanks. Currently, something important came up in my work, and I can read, but not write as much as I would like. There will be some delay…

    I’ve made some PDF’s of your JPG documents, so I can read them quick and easy. (I can not write on your drive, but if you want them, I can try to upload them somewhere)

    For example from Preto – Bibliography – I scanned through and found these references, which, of course, I can not find but seem interesting.

    81.
    N.Conti, Delle historie de ‘souoi tempi, Daminan Zenaro, Venetia 1589, P.74

    82.
    ccx, Lettere secrete, fz 7, 22 febbraio 1571, Lettere di rettori e altre cariche, Dalmazia Albiana, b.302, 2 maggio 1571

  • #754 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, pdf files would be useful. Don’t bother giving me a pdf for the latest cipher keys that I have shared as they do not really belong to a group in my opinion. Specific books or things like to Paolo Preto bibliography could benefit from being in pdf form. The Codex Urbinate could benefit from being a pdf. I thought about making a pdf of Volume I of Lydia Cerioni and another pdf for Volume II, but I was not sure if they would be too large a file size for other people. But generally I agree pdfs are a good idea. They are easier to work with though I don’t find stepping through jpg files so difficult.

  • #755 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    So if you can make one pdf for each of the following:

    1.

    Cryptographie by Jean Richard

    2.

    I servizi segreti di Venezia, Spionaggio e controspionaggio ai tempi della Serenissima by Paolo Preto – Chapter 13 Bibliography

    3.

    Tachigrafia Notarile E Scritture Segrete Medioevali by Giorgio Costamagna

    4.

    Codex Urbinate

    5.

    Lydia Cerioni Volume I – Ducal Invitations

    6.

    Lydia Cerioni Volume I – Letters

    7.

    Lydia Cerioni Volume I – Biography

    If you can do that it would be amazing. We can then think about whether it is a good idea to join all the pdfs for Lydia Cerioni Volume I into 1 pdf for the whole book; for my purposes I am not sure if this is a good idea.

  • #756 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I suppose converting Lydia Cerioni Volume I Tranchedino – 5v to 101r to one pdf by converting and joining each subfolder is probably a good idea. Again I am not sure that converting the whole book to pdf is a good idea.
    I don’t know how much work this is for you, but the more you can do the better.

  • #757 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, Paolo Preto’s bibliography is the best bibliography that I have found for 15th century Italian cipher related books and articles and it also contains some archive references. I know it is not perfect, but is pretty good I think. Obviously it does not contain a complete reference on cipher archives, but that is too much to ask I think. Ultimately there is some cipher archive work that just has to be done the slow laborious way.

  • #758 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    >> Lydia Cerioni Volume I – Biography . If you can do that it would be amazing. We can then think about whether it is a good idea to join all the pdfs for Lydia Cerioni Volume I into 1 pdf for the whole book; for my purposes I am not sure if this is a good idea.

     

    For me it is *not* possible to join existing PDF’s and JPG and other media.

    All I did was joining multiple (sequential numbered) JPG’s very quickly and then save as PDF. Have a look at the drive.

    Furthermore I do not know, the Cerioni book layout.

  • #759 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Thanks for your efforts anyway.

  • #760 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Currently in some spare time, looking for manuscripts, cifra from the region West Venice.

    Why, you can read in my paper, once it’s finished.

    Finding ms from there seems difficult. I do not know why. Of course I already have the Pasini letters, but those are too late (once 1411 an 15xx).

    also listed on this site: http://www.crittologia.eu/storia/cri_rinascim.html

    He uses the term:  La crittografia a Venezia

     

    There are cifra from 1200, 1300 and 1400!! But where are they?

     

    starting point: http://www.archiviodistatovenezia.it/siasve/cgi-bin/pagina.pl?Chiave=13906&Tipo=fondo

    then http://www.archiviodistatovenezia.it/siasve/cgi-bin/pagina.pl?Tipo=inventario&Chiave=752

    In the PDF a descr. of the Gian Vincenzo Pinelli documents. No cifre/cifra hits, just letters probably.

    Busta 14. 15.  year 1380

    38. 1494

    39. year 1404

    probable good sources

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivio_di_Stato_di_Venezia

    all libraries in italy : https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagrafe_delle_biblioteche_italiane

    the Venezian archive explained:

    http://www.engramma.it/eOS/index.php?id_articolo=2898

     

    Italian Manuscripts oldest are perhaps 1700 different regions, Incunaboli e libri antichi, go back to 1493

    http://nbm.regione.veneto.it/Generale/index.html?language=it&

     

  • #761 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Try:

    State Archive of Venice->Heads of the Council of Ten->Keys of ciphers:

    1) Bust VII, Issue 10

    Manual of Scrignigrafia contains encrypted letters

    2) Envelopes I-VIII

    There are a large number of ciphers used by the Venetians; some were intercepted from foreign countries.

    I hope you will be able to help me locate Milanese enciphered letters from before 1447 or cipher keys connected to Milan.

  • #762 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    If you are interested:

    Page 14 of the Tranchedino cipher ledger

    has the same cipher key as

    Page 26v of the Codex Urbinate (Page 62)

    This is the cipher key used to communicate between Urbino and Milan.

  • #763 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    thanks!  Yes, I’ve seen you wrote that on ciphermysteries as well! good job.  Next week here 40 degrees…

  • #764 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, as I said on ciphermysteries, it is obvious that every cipher key has a twin, so even if the cipher ledger from Milan from before 1447 was destroyed it doesn’t mean that all the twins were destroyed. I want to find as many of those twins as possible and if even the twin cipher key no longer exists enciphered letters between the twins may still exist. The more of the Milanese cipher ledger from before 1447 that I can reconstruct the better. Any of your thoughts as to where to look would be of value. I have my own ideas about where to look, but the more ideas the better.

  • #765 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Ok, if you are really specifically interest in the Milanese cipher ledger from before 1447, with flags on Visconti communication,  you shouldn’t wait on my paper, because if has its focus on the ciphers that are related to the VMS. Those are from between 1370-1425 (latest) as far as I can see now.

    IMO, the Filippo Maria Visconti has no specific relation to the VMS, (but I can understand it, if you’ve been triggered by the images and colors from that court)

    Then I suggest we could try the following:

    1. read everything on the Visconti relations, read: persons  (not only the cancellaria, because there was no formal one)
    2. find the residences of the all those persons, at the time of communication
    3. trace back the letters and look some up in the different state archives. I would first go to Sforza-Visconti communication.

    I think we should make a list with the URL’s or physical locations (for visit) of the archives that are related.
    As a starting point I investigated you the “state regions during 1400” in relation to the ciphers found, perhaps you can add that information (URL’s & physical locations of letter archives) ?

    I am willing to help with the Visconti search above, because it could lead to old ciphers.

    But I have now first about 1500 pages to read on Italian and cipher relation stuff. For example now on the Constantinople – Venice relation.

    Let me know how you think on the sketched approach?

  • #766 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Within my theory there is an association between the administration of Filippo Maria Visconti and the Voynich manuscript, so I want to increase my knowledge of the ciphers from Milan from before 1447. I believe that there was a formal cancellaria.

    Yes, the strategy that you describe is similar to my own thinking, so that is good.

  • #767 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    From the same town (Pavia) as Filippo, comes the famous Girolamo Cardano, however he was born much later in 1501.
    By someone associated with the VMS with the Cardan grille, a cryptographic writing tool, in 1550.

    Father of Filippo, Gian Galeazzo Visconti (1351-1402) did hold a big archive, known for his tortures and his archive. Hmm, let’s find that.

    On wikipedia I’ve now seen this incredible description: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Galeazzo_Visconti and https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Sommario_delle_vite_de%27_duchi_di_Milano

    * Five Illuminated Manuscripts of Giangeleazzo Visconti (Monographs on the Fine Arts) (College Art Association Monograph) Hardcover – April 1, 1991
    * …

    Gian Galeazzo Visconti, his testament:

    fece redigere un testamento nel quale suddivideva il suoi vasti domini tra i vari figli: al maggiore Giovanni Maria Visconti lasciò il titolo di Duca di Milano e la signoria appunto su Milano e su Cremona, Como, Lodi, Piacenza, Parma, Reggio, Bergamo, Brescia, Bologna, Siena e Perugia;

    al secondogenito Filippo Maria Visconti lasciò il titolo di Conte di Pavia con appunto la signoria su Pavia, Novara, Vercelli, Tortona, Alessandria, Verona, Vicenza, Feltre, Belluno e Bassano (tutte queste terre le ebbe in appannaggio e come vassallo del fratello maggiore Giovanni Maria);

    entrambi i due figli, in quanto minorenni, erano posti sotto la reggenza della loro madre, la duchessa Caterina Visconti.

    ——>
    I know you want his son Filippo, but I urge you to look at his father first.
    The overlap with his father and the period we are looking into, is not very big from the perspective of the archives.

    Secondly, the obvious starting points, such as Filippo will not bare any fruits, otherwise many other researchers already found something.

    An example

    1386: Guglielmo Bevilacqua Verona letters can be found here.
    https://biblioteche.comune.verona.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=19820
    He had 9 children, Galeotto (? -1441), was serving under Visconti

    1385: Francesco il Vecchio da Carrara, lettere.
    source: bibnum.enc.sorbonne.fr
    http://bibnum.enc.sorbonne.fr/omeka/files/original/a8561033593ffe1f4e22cdc794445775.pdf

    Un codice, già noto (2), conservato nell’archivio della nobile
    famiglia Papafava, reca al basso della prima carta, entro uno
    scudo, un carro rosso, in parte cancellato. Quantunque il manoscritto
    sia per certo del Trecento e contenga una cronaca famigliare
    dei Carraresi, scritta in lingua volgare, mancano gli
    indizi per identificarlo con qualcuno dei libri indicati nell’ inventario
    del 1404.

    (2) E il cod. 38, parte I, membranaceo, del sec. XIV, di cc. 86 non numerate,
    legato nel 1790 con altra parte della cronaca di mano posteriore, e
    con copie di documenti carraresi.

    A code, already known (2), kept in the archive of the noble
    Papafava family, bears at the bottom of the first card, within one
    shield, a red chariot, partly canceled. Although the manuscript
    be for sure of the fourteenth century and contain a family chronicle
    dei Carraresi, written in the vernacular, are missing
    clues to identify it with any of the books listed in the inventory
    of 1404.

    (2) And the cod. 38, part I, membranous, of the century. XIV, of cc. 86 not numbered,
    bound in 1790 with another part of the backhand chronicle, e
    with copies of Carrara documents.

    You should also be able to find documents @ Archivio di Stato di Pavia, Università, Notaio Griffi.
    (on http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/gian-galeazzo-visconti-duca-di-milano_(Dizionario-Biografico)/) I read:

    I cronisti Galeazzo e Bartolomeo Gatari raccontano di denari versati da G. all’imperatore per l’acquisto di Verona (Soldi Rondinini, La dominazione viscontea a Verona, p. 46), mentre una bolla di Bonifacio IX definisce esplicitamente G. “imperialis vicarius in Mediolanensi et Veronensi civitatibus” (Archivio di Stato di Pavia, Università, Notaio Griffi, b. 8, c. 156v: 3 marzo 1392):


    Filippo Maria was bilingual. French and Italian.
    IMO, a mixed text would resemble the following: http://www.rialfri.eu/rialfriPHP/public/testo/testo/codice/cronacaFrancescoNovello.html

    “Filippo Maria restò l’unico erede. Egli aveva ereditato dal padre l’ambizione e l’astuzia, ma anche un carattere cupo e sospettoso. Per educazione giovanile era
    bilingue, conosceva perfettamente il francese. Il tempo migliore lo dedicava a leggere Tito Livio, Petrarca e i poemi delle Chansons de Geste. Viveva nel terrore di essere avvelenato: non toccava cibo senza prima averlo fatto assaggiare ai maggiordomi. Il timore di essere assassinato nel sonno lo convinse a dormire con porte e finestre sprangate, con guardie fidatissime in ogni angolo. Pregava spesso, soprattutto quando la notte aveva un incubo: facevo voti di ogni tipo, ma non sempre li manteneva. Amava la buona tavola ed era un bevitore accanito.”

    \…otto figli legittimi e venti illegittimi: ma la moglie si vendicò uccidendogli l’amante preferita.

    To give an idea:
    Humanist, Francesco Filelfo, a good friend,
    wrote 2000 letters, between 1420-1477 according to https://www.ediorso.it/collected-letters-epistolarum-libri-xlviii-vol-1-4-tomi-indivisibili.html

    Filippo.. Gli successe il figlio Galeazzo Maria, che somigliava più ai Visconti che agli Sforza: condusse una vita dissoluta, finanziandosi addirittura un harem.

    Found here: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/MadsIsTheMan/house-of-sforza/?lp=true
    a signed autograph letter of a page in 4th of Galeazzo Maria Sforza, dated Pavia October 16, 1470, https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/32259493_sforza-gian-galeazzo-simonetta-francesco-detto

    And then we have the genealogy:
    http://www.genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/visconti2.html

    It seems D. Pizzagalli writes the most extensive book on the famiglia. Another one: Cognasso Francesco, I Visconti , Dall’Oglio 1966

    I am not sure where all the Visconti lived, but this is a starting point. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castello_Visconteo_(Pavia)

    The pavia manuscripts are located here: http://centromanoscritti.unipv.it/collezioni/archivi-letterari.html

  • #768 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    I can not find in the archive you suggestions. searching on “chiave” or ” Consiglio di dieci” only brings up nonsense items.

    Can you help me where to look?

    State Archive of Venice->Heads of the Council of Ten->Keys of ciphers:

    1) Bust VII, Issue 10

    Manual of Scrignigrafia contains encrypted letters

    2) Envelopes I-VIII

  • #769 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    You should take the tour: (it’s fun)

    SPECIAL ITINERARIES: Secret Itineraries Tour

  • #770 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    Yes, I know about Pavia. There is a State Archive there as well as some other archives. I don’t know how much of interest there is in Pavia, it is somewhere I potentially might visit.

    I think you made a mistake Gian Galeazzo Visconti died in 1402. Then he was succeeded by his son Giovanni Maria Visconti, who was murdered in 1412. Then Filippo Maria Visconti became Duke until 1447. (Bernabo Visconti was the father of Gian Galeazzo.)

    Gian Galeazzo is a little early for my interest and I am not sure how much of his archive survives.

    There is research that has been done into Filippo Maria Visconti, but not on his ciphers, to the best of my knowledge.

    I have seen some enciphered letters from the time of Gian Galeazzo Visconti. I will share them with you on the OneDrive. They can be found digitised on the Biblioteca National de France website, but I have not yet found any from the administration of Filippo Maria Visconti.

    You are right to mention Francesco Filelfo. In the Tranchedino there is a cipher key headed “Francesco Filelfo”, so I would think there would have also been one from the time of Filippo Maria Visconti. Thanks for that suggestion I didn’t think of that! Given there are 2000 letters one would hope to find an enciphered letter from the time of Filippo Maria Visconti.

  • #771 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Date: yes you are right, altered!

    Well, Gian Galeazzo insisted that everything must be written down. I wanted to start there, cause I want to find out where those docs are stored now.
    This might give a clue on later archives.

    Aha, yes please put it on the onedrive!

    Especially if you have anything on State Archive of Venice. (see above)

  • #772 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Note to myself: find the Jstor login to read this:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/10.1086/673405.pdf?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
    Matteo Visconti, obscure death(1250-1322),….414 pages to long

    here: http://www.cambridge.org/nl/academic/subjects/history/european-history-1000-1450/giangaleazzo-visconti-duke-milan-13511402-study-political-career-italian-despot?format=PB&isbn=9780521234559

    it says: …the carefully accumulated material in Giangaleazzo’s chanceries was destroyed when the Castello of Milan was razed to the ground –

    Hm. So I found two books. pff more to read.

    1. https://archive.org/details/dellamorteefuner00dell
    2. https://archive.org/details/nuovericerchesul00past

    On filippo: there are 31 hits…nothing of interest unless you want to read the history again at the end of this theatre play: https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_Bl0q3HJ3ZXYC#page/n167

    Hm. https://archive.org/stream/nuovericerchesul00past#page/24/mode/2up
    Shows that number sequences were in use. It this a cipher?

     

    — changed 23.7.2018 —

    la seduta 18 apr 1388
    footnote 2) A.d.S.V. “Secreta Consiliu Rogatorum” E. I (copia).
    In questa seduta e decisa la guerra a Francesco il Vecchio e l’alleanza col signor di Milano;
    la votazione e la seguente: 17 Aprile c. 20 t.
    si=54 65 72 73
    no=45 48 44 44
    non sinceri=43 28 24 24
    Cfr. anche G. Collino, op. cit p.254. col18 aprile Venezia incomincia ache a respingere le offerte e i consigli dei Fiorentini.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_I_da_Carrara
    Francesco I da Carrara (29 September 1325, Monza – 6 October 1393, Padua), called il Vecchio, was Lord of Padua from 1350 to 1388.
    in 1385, he allied with Visconti of Milan against Scaligeri (at that time <span>Antonio della Scala) </span>of Verona. But on 13 nov. 1388 Venice and Milan formed a collation against Francesco and he was captured and send to Como and later Monza after selling Padua to Visconti on 11 febr. 1389.

    more on http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/carrara-francesco-da-il-novello_(Dizionario-Biografico)/

    Hm. http://tesi.cab.unipd.it/52926/1/tesi_IGranzotto.pdf

    shows:

    Per questo motivo nel 1387 Francesco decise di lasciare al Visconti il comando della campagna contro Antonio della Scala.
    Gli accordi con il Visconti prevedevano che Francesco avrebbe ottenuto Verona mentre a Gian Galeazzo sarebbe rimasta Vicenza. Libero su quel fronte il Carrarese poté concentrarsi sull’area friulana conquistando Aviano e Caneva e minacciando seriamente Sacile. 247

    Un nuovo problema emerse al momento della definitiva sconfitta scaligera. Gian
    Galeazzo non rispettò i patti stabiliti in precedenza e mantenne il dominio sul distretto
    veronese.

    A peggiorare la situazione nel 1387 il patriarca d’Alançon, fedele amico di Francesco, diede le dimissioni, privando così il Carrarese anche del suo importante appoggio
    253

     

    This document is perhaps in Venice, see bottom: http://www.archiviodistatovenezia.it/web/index.php?id=113

    And the index, https://archive.org/stream/nuovericerchesul00past#page/368/mode/2up

    Speaks of “biblioteca marciana venezia”,

    https://marciana.venezia.sbn.it/

    https://marciana.venezia.sbn.it/la-biblioteca/biblioteca-digitale

    which hold many “manoscritti Latini Classe XIV N. 93”

    the c.20.t. must be in Agli ufficiali di Balia a firenze , or in Camerino.

    There are more documents listed with locations.

    other refs

    http://www.istitutoveneto.org/pdf/Venezia_Senato_It_Eng

    from http://www.arielcaliban.org/PX_senate.pdf

    this background

    The third Council to be instituted was the Consilium Rogatorum, in
    the Venetian language Consiglio dei Pregàdi (i.e. “of the requested”
    or “solicited”):

     

    — end of changes 23.7.2018

    Look for “Segreti di collegio” et “secreta consiliu” somewhere in Firence?

  • #773 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    The Bibliothèque nationale de France has this Milanese enciphered letter from the time of Gian Galeazzo Visconti:

    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9060156p/f188.item.zoom

    This was found by searching using the keywords “visconti” and “chiffre” here:

    http://archivesetmanuscrits.bnf.fr

    I don’t know if the letter is part enciphered or fully enciphered. Maybe if you like a challenge you can translate it and work out what the cipher key is. I have attached a black and white version, but you will probably find the original easiest to work with.

    If you can find enciphered letters from the time of Filippo Maria Visconti that would be great.

    I don’t know how much there is in the French archive, but I think they do have quite a few of documents from Milan from this general period.

    As you know some documents have found there way to Moscow.

    Attachments:
    You must be logged in to view attached files.
  • #775 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    That is a good find! There are several pages to work on. Perhaps I better work on that first.

    What I do not understand, the Galeazzo Visconti letters are from 1528/29. How is that possible, who is that?

    See for example: https://books.google.nl/books?id=q1upbVL6U3MC&lpg=PA161&ots=p5ACF63g9-&dq=Il%20Re%20Cristianissimo%20mio%20soprane%20signore&hl=nl&pg=PA161#v=onepage&q=Il%20Re%20Cristianissimo%20mio%20soprane%20signore&f=false

    I am very confused on the Visconti genealogy now: the last visconti was Filippo Maria Visconti.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visconti_of_Milan

  • #776 Score: 1

    MarkKnowles
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    I will check.

    Yes, Filippo Maria Visconti was the last Duke of Milan and he died in 1447. There were obviously later people who were prominent in various professions, some political or religious, with the last name Visconti. However Gian Galeazzo Visconti died in 1402.

    Look at:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeazzo_Visconti

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeazzo_Visconti_(envoy)

    This is not Gian Galeazzo Visconti, Duke of Milan, but an envoy to the Sforza Duke. I can see why you would be confused as they have very similar names.

    However it looks like you may be right that the letters are from “Galeazzo Visconti” not “Gian Galeazzo Visconti”. Sorry for my mistake.

  • #777 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Just now, ordered these books:

    The Count Of Virtue: Giangaleazzo Visconti, First Duke Of Lombardy
    Giangaleazzo Visconti, Duke of Milan (1351-1402): A Study in the Political Career of an Italian Despot – D. M. Bueno de Mesquita (can be read partly on google)
    The Duke and the Stars: Astrology and Politics in Renaissance Milan (I Tatti Studies in Italian Renaissance History) – Monica Azzolini ((can be read for free here https://updoc.site/download/5b0ca95ea7c57_pdf)

  • #778 Score: 0

    MarkKnowles
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    I have not read the Bueno de Mesquita, so I will be interested in what you find.

  • #779 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Good overview on the names Visconti, that makes things a bit clearer.

    Galeazzo Visconti (envoy), 1499. pace di Basilea, del duca milanese Ludovico Sforza e del suo inviato Galeazzo Visconti.

    What I don’t understand, is there happens to be a “magic” envoy person, with exactly the same name, who is sent by, il Moro, L. Sforza
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeazzo_Visconti_(envoy)

    Have to work now, but we need more info on him.

    add: 25-7-2018

    on

    mailändischen Gesandten Galeazzo Visconti

    can be found here. https://books.google.nl/books?id=iRdCAAAAcAAJ&lpg=PA178&ots=CWooMHEtNu&dq=mail%C3%A4ndischen%20Gesandten%20Galeazzo%20Visconti&hl=nl&pg=PA203#v=onepage&q=Galeazzo%20Visconti&f=false

    But what his family line is, still not clear.

    This is an interesting book on the Sforza:

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=WnMqCgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA121&ots=2x8rrCvRDz&dq=mail%C3%A4ndischen%20Gesandten%20Galeazzo%20Visconti&hl=nl&pg=PA127#v=onepage&q=mail%C3%A4ndischen%20Gesandten%20Galeazzo%20Visconti&f=false

    “symbolen der visconti und sforza, der drachtenformuigen Schlange, die einen roten menschen verschlingt, dem roten kreuz von mailand, dem mailbeerbam, dem mohrem den turmen von genua (!), der Kette etc behangen.”

    in 1494: Gian Galeazzo II Maria = Gian Galeazzo Maria Sforza (1469-1494) maried with Herzogin von Mailand.

    Still, very very strange…

    Is this an error?

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=1Z_-QRsHRFwC&lpg=PA284&dq=mail%C3%A4ndischen%20Gesandten%20Galeazzo%20Visconti&hl=nl&pg=PA284#v=onepage&q=verwechslung%20galeazzo&f=false

    Was it in fact Galeazzo Sanseverino, who mistakingly is called Visconti, in almost every source?

    Galeazzo Sanseverino: 1458-1525, https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galeazzo_Sanseverino

    Pace di Basilea, https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pace_di_Basilea_(1499)

    still not sure..

  • #780 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Answering my own Venice question.

    http://www.archiviodistatovenezia.it/siasve/cgi-bin/pagina.pl?Tipo=fondo&Chiave=10639

    Miscellaneous mixed and notable materials, 1416 – 1796, with copy documents from 1191; .
    Other names: Mixed and notable materials.

    ..«Codes» and «Codes ex Brera “(General Guide, IV, pp. 1129-1130),” Acts returned from Austria “(General Guide, IV, page 1132), partly merged into the miscellaneous” Codes “- and in the Archives series – “Provisions from the ground and from the sea” of the “Senate” (General Guide, IV, page 898), “Relationships” of the “College” (General Guide, IV, p.890). On the other hand, no pieces have been removed that have been incorporated into well known and quoted funds («Consultori in iure», «Camera dei confini»).  The miscellany consists of 229 pieces, placed in envelopes and numbered 1-229 and 20 rolls, numbered 230-249.

    1. follow secreta…docs on : click op reprodu…digitale. Enable flash.
      Archivo Secreta (Segreta)-materie miste notabili
      Inventario dattiloscritto 1965
      a cura di Maria Francesca Tiepolo

      also on page pag. 68 di 475, you can see that there are only docs of a later date 1600-1700. from “la camera dei confini”. There the normal public docs were held.  (see http://www.veneziamuseo.it/repubblica/mar_sen_p_camcom.htm)
      browsed till 78 in detail then some random
      I see no sign of a cipher, but perhaps this is the wrong place or they do not mention it.
      Also a lot of unidentified documents.

    2. where are these docs: Guida generale, IV, p. 911 follow docs on http://www.maas.ccr.it

    However, the search function does not work (anymore) so search can be done by google:   cifra cifrario site:www.maas.ccr.it

    That provides only one hit in the PDF, under “Modena. I Antichi reaimi”

    Miscellanea di serie minori, bb. 22 e regg. 13 (1459-1796). Inventari
    sommari a stampa.
    Licenze di porto d’armi. Licenze di abitare fuori dello Stato. Confini entro
    lo Stato. Cifrario per il carteggio diplomatico. Sindacati e cambiamenti rotali:
    nomine e sindacati di pubblici ufficiali, rotazione degli uffici. Varie da collegarsi
    con le minute e i registri copialettere.

    And  on http://www.maas.ccr.it/h3/h3.exe/aguida/d51689/fDocumento

    Documento 51689 di 58223:  « Cifrario, (raccolta di cifre) di Agostino Amadi » , 1588 , reg. 1. [vol. IV, pag. 904]

    Ah, mentioned in Preto’s book here: https://books.google.nl/books?id=YpC1mEnpEUAC&lpg=PA277&ots=ubGRyBl2LD&dq=cifre%20di%20Agostino%20Amadi&hl=nl&pg=PA277#v=onepage&q=Agostino%20Amadi&f=false

    all in all very disappointing that there not an online searchable archive for such an old a rich republic

  • #781 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    On Maria V, you should be able to find this letter, mentioned 1426, 1426

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=0Sz2VYI0l1IC&lpg=PA25&ots=4zRm0C62tI&dq=Archivo%20Secreta%20venezia%2C%20Maria%20Visconti&hl=nl&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=Archivo%20Secreta%20venezia,%20Maria%20Visconti&f=false

    see also the index on page 579

     

    and

    http://www.rm.unina.it/rivista/dwnl/saggi_leverotti_08_1.pdf

    This PDF 23 pages makes many references to places where letters can be found (i did not read it),  many seem to be in the BNF bottom page 22.

    added:

    Secret agreements mentioned here, not sure if these documents exist and if they are in cipher, but could be:

    https://books.google.nl/books?id=8p-oDQAAQBAJ&lpg=PT231&ots=A2MrQSXx0r&dq=Ludovico%20Sforza%2C%20envoys&hl=nl&pg=PT477#v=onepage&q=visconti&f=false

     

  • #782 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Other books, those from Vincent Ilardi:

    Of which seem relevant:

    1. Occhiali alla corte di Francesco e Galeazzo Maria Sforza con documenti inediti del 1462-1466. Translated by Guido Lopez. Milan: Metal Lux, 1978.
    2. “Doni di Occhiali alla Corte sforzesca,” Ca’ de Sass, N. 113 (1991), 52-56.
    3. “Florence’s Leadership in the Development of Eyeglasses in the Fifteenth Century,” Arte Lombarda, Nos. 105-07 (1993), 159-62.
    4. “Renaissance Florence: The Optical Capital of the World,” Journal of European Economic History, 22 (1993), 507-41.
    5. “Firenze capitale degli Occhiali.” In Arti fiorentine, vol. 2, Il Quattrocento, edited by Franco Franceschi and Gloria Fossi, 190-213. Florence: Giunti, 1999.
    6. “The Role of Florence in the Development and Commerce of Spectacles.” Atti della Fondazione Giorgio Ronchi 56/1 (2001): 163-76.
    7. FIFTEENTH-CENTURY DIPLOMATIC DOCUMENTS IN WESTERN EUROPEAN ARCHIVES AND LIBRARIES, 1962. JSTOR

     

    also

    Dispatches With Related Documents of Milanese Ambassadors in France and Burgundy, 1450-1483, TWO volumes. by Paul Murray Kendall (Editor), Vincent Ilardi (Translator)

     

  • #783 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    Listing names of relevant castles.

    1. Visconti Castle (Somma Lombardo)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visconti_Castle_(Somma_Lombardo)

    official site:

    http://www.castelloviscontidisanvito.it/

    http://www.lombardiabeniculturali.it/architetture/schede/1A050-00515/

    2. Castello di Porta Giovia,

    In questa località i Visconti, attorno alla Rocca originaria, costruirono un vero e proprio Castello di Porta Giovia, che venne distrutto nel periodo della Repubblica Ambrosiana e ricostruito sulle rovine dagli Sforza, divenendo quello che è oggi conosciuto come Castello Sforzesco.

     

    3. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castello_Sforzesco

    4. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castello_di_Santa_Croce

    on the bottom of the page all castles, Castelli della Lombardia

     

     

     

  • #784 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    In French: duc Maximilien Sfortie Vesconte

  • #785 Score: 0

    Agricola
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    che agiscono anche a nome di
    Isacchino e Tomasino de la Nuce e ai quali Filippo Maria Visconti ha riconosciuto con
    lettere patenti il diritto di acquisto

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